Responding to an Islamic Objector

Within 48-hours of my posting of my article on the deity of Christ on facebook, a certain Muslim started writing his response on my comment box, which I promptly responded back to. Herein is how I responded to him (with his comments in boldface):

let me take some parts and start debaeting [sic] with u about it

1- For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,… See More
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Of the increase of his government and of peace
there will be no end,
on the throne of David and over his kingdom,
to establish it and to uphold it
with justice and with righteousness
from this time forth and forevermore.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this

(Isaiah 9:6-7)

if u read it in a jewish translation its will be like this

ה כִּי-יֶלֶד יֻלַּד-לָנוּ, בֵּן נִתַּן-לָנוּ, וַתְּהִי הַמִּשְׂרָה, עַל-שִׁכְמוֹ; וַיִּקְרָא שְׁמוֹ פֶּלֶא יוֹעֵץ, אֵל גִּבּוֹר, אֲבִי-עַד, שַׂר-שָׁלוֹם.

5 For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;

ו לם רבה (לְמַרְבֵּה) הַמִּשְׂרָה וּלְשָׁלוֹם אֵין-קֵץ, עַל-כִּסֵּא דָוִד וְעַל-
מַמְלַכְתּוֹ, לְהָכִין אֹתָהּ וּלְסַעֲדָהּ, בְּמִשְׁפָּט וּבִצְדָקָה; מֵעַתָּה, וְעַד-עוֹלָם, קִנְאַת יְהוָה צְבָאוֹת, תַּעֲשֶׂה-זֹּאת. {פ}

6 That the government may be increased, and of peace there be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it through justice and through righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts doth perform this. {P}

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1009.htm

notice here ( and his name is called ) not his name shall be called

witch mean [sic] this was prophecy that was in the past

The verb for “call” (וַיִּקְרָא) isn’t quite translated properly here. It’s a passive future tense verb that should literally be translated “One will call his name…”

Besides, who on earth would make a prophecy about something that happens in the past? That doesn’t make sense, since prophecies are supposed to be about the future…. See More

now let us talked [sic] about and see if its about jesus or not

1-For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given

you know that the bible has many sons so it can be any one

That’s why the context of the whole passage needs to be taken into account. The passage has to be a Messianic prophecy (The Jews back in Jesus’ time would certainly agree, although modern Jews may not necessarily do so). If it’s not, then what else could it possibly be referring to?

2-and the government shall be upon his shoulder

Jesus did not come to be the government upon his shoulder

John 18:36 (English Standard Version)

36Jesus answered, (A) “My kingdom(B) is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world,(C) my servants would have been fighting, that(D) I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”

and when the Jew try to make him a king what did he do ?

John 6:15 (New International Version)

15Jesus, knowing that they intended to come and make him king by force, withdrew again to a mountain by himself.

You cited John 18:36 to argue against me, yet what you don’t realize is that John 18:36 is the exact same verse that I would use to disprove your point. You see, you make the same error the Jews make in assuming “the government” (הַמִּשְׂרָה) refers to an earthly kingdom.

Remember how Jesus spoke about the Kingdom of God? That is the government that is being talked about in Isaiah 9:6. Again, I would like to refer you to the coming of the son of Man in Daniel 7:13-14

I saw in the night visions,
and behold, with the clouds of heaven
there came one like a son of man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days
and was presented before him.
And to him was given dominion
and glory and a kingdom,
that all peoples, nations, and languages
should serve him;
his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
which shall not pass away,
and his kingdom one
that shall not be destroyed.

This eschatological kingdom is the one that is being talked about in Isaiah 9:6, and unlike earthly kingdoms which pass away, this is the only type of kingdom “of [which] the increase… there will be no end” (Isaiah 9:7).

3-and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

can u show me where did any one called Jesus by the name of Mighty ? God

Notice that the Messiah is said to be his name shall be called “mighty God” (אֵל גִּבֹּור).

If you look at early Christian writings that came immediately after the New Testament, you will find that the early Christians did indeed say that Christ is the “mighty god” that is mentioned here. For example, Justin Martyr in his Dialogue with Trypho the Jew states:

And how Christ after He was born was to escape the notice of other men until He grew to man’s estate, which also came to pass, hear what was foretold regarding this. There are the following predictions: —“Unto us a child is born, and unto us a young man is given, and the government shall be upon His shoulders;” —“Unto us a child is born, and unto us a young man is given, and the government shall be upon His shoulders;
(Justin Martyr. Dialogue with Trypho. Chapter 35.)

Justin Martyr cits this passage more than once. He mentions it again in chapter 76 of his dialogue, once again affirming that Jesus is the one being talked about. In addition Irenaeus of Lyons also cites Isaiah 9:6 in Against Heresies (III:16:3) and clearly affirms that Jesus is the one being spoken of. Thus we see that the early Church did in fact believe that the “mighty god” of Isaiah 9:6 is Jesus.

Besides, if Jesus isn’t the “mighty god” of Isaiah 9:6, then who is? 😉

4- Prince of Peace

and more than that Jesus did not come to bring Peace

read what Jesus said

Matthew 10:34 (New International Version)

34″Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Luke 12:49 (New International Version)

Not Peace but Division
49″I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!

Luke 14:26 (New International Version)

26″If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple.

Luke 19:27 (New International Version)

27But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.”

is Jesus here a Prince of Peace ?


I would like to refer you to these two sayings of Jesus:

Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid. (John 14:27)

I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world. (John 16:33)

Now, you brought up Matthew 10:34, Luke 12:49 and a bunch of other verses to argue agains this. What you need to realize is that Jesus already answers this in John 14:27 when He says that the kind of peace He gives is not the kind of peace the world gives. So clearly He is distinguishing two different nuances of the word “peace” here. Worldly peace is characterized by lack of division (and since faith in Christ causes division, this cannot be the kind of peace Christ offers). The true peace that Christ offers is peace with God, which is brought about by justification by grace through faith in His finished work on the cross.

Furthermore, Jesus doesn’t -intend- to cause the kinds of divisions mentioned in the verses you brought up. Now, they have their place in God’s decretive will, obviously, but from a temporal perspective, these divisions are the (unfortunately) necessary consequences of believers coming to faith while their own loved ones and relatives remain in unbelief and proceed to hate them for their faith.

as u can see this prophecy does not talk about Jesus

Pretty much everybody during the ancient and medieval periods have agreed that Isaiah 9:6-7 refers to the coming Messiah. Modern Jews may deny this, but they do so in contradiction to what Jews in earlier centuries have taught. That being said, if this is not about the Messiah (whom both Christians and Muslims agree is Jesus), who does it talk about then? (More information here)

Now, let’s talk about John 1:1:

B – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made…

IF U MEAN THAT THE WORD HERE MEANS (JESUS ) AND JESUS IS GOD

John clearly means to convey that, as is made evident in verse 14 where he says “And the word became flesh and dwelt among us” (και ο λογος σαρξ εγενετο και εσκηνωσεν εν ημιν).

then the verses have to be understand [sic] like this way

In the beginning was the Word ( God), and the Word (God) was with God, and the Word (God) was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made…

can u explan fro [sic] me this part please ( and the Word (God) was with God ) ?

i will stop here and wait for your reply to my first response

You see Omar, in Christian theology, we define the nature of God using two Greek words: Ousia (ουσια, usually translated as essence or being) and hypostasis (υποστασις, usually translated as person). We as Christians say God is one in His ousia (essence/being), but that within the one ousia of God, we have three coequal and coeternal hypostases (who are the Father, Son and Holy Spirit).

Thus, when when we say that the Word was with God and is God at the same time, we mean that the two hypostases of the Father and the Son (plus the Holy Spirit, even though He is not explicitly mentioned in the verse) are with each other in eternity past. In doing so, however, they are not regarded as separate gods. Rather, they constitute one divine being (ousia).

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